Transcript
Bryan McCartney
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples should be aware that this episode may contain the names of people who have passed away. You’re listening to ushering death. Follow us on all good podcast apps or an usheringdeath.com.au. Welcome to ushering death. Today I’m joined by Jett Good morning, Jett.
Jett Crabb-Moore
Good morning.
Bryan McCartney
You’re only young How old are you? 12. So today we’re talking about perspective from a 12 year old on death, dying and grief and all of those sorts of things. How are you today? Good. Good. excited to talk to us. And I’m sharing that.
Jett Crabb-Moore
Yeah, very fun.
Bryan McCartney
Good stuff. Let’s get right into it. What do you think happens when you die?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, I know your expand. Well, it’s well, your body all shuts down. I know that but I don’t know much about it.
Bryan McCartney
What did you say before you expand?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Or you know your gases and everything? Oh, yeah. So
Bryan McCartney
physically? Absolutely. So your body sometimes? bloats? Yeah, sorts of things. Not always. But sometimes. What about like, spiritually? What do you think happens when you die?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, with my abs, I got I’m indigenous. So a little bit of it. So like, on my indigenous, I would believe that your, like your spirits, like your ancestors, like watch over you. But like, you could be a good spirit or a bad spirit. There’s some areas that bad spirits hang around, but obviously, you never know. So, yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Indigenous people they call it sorry, business, right?
Jett Crabb-Moore
I don’t know.
Bryan McCartney
I’m pretty sure that when a person dies in an indigenous culture here in Australia, it’s called sorry, business. So where the mob come together, and they sort of all, you know, process this business, and that looks a bit different. So what do you sort of think about when people talk about death? Well, I
Jett Crabb-Moore
know it’s just, I think about how just inevitable but what impact and what impact you’re gonna make before you die on? So
Bryan McCartney
that’s a really good question. So one of the other questions I had was, how do you think that we should measure a person’s life?
Jett Crabb-Moore
How good or bad of an impact they had on the people around them and like the earth and just like people and animals and nature?
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. So what do you think would be someone who left a positive impact
Jett Crabb-Moore
someone like David Attenborough? He’s, he left a good he’s leaving and good impact. What’s that woman who? She’s a girl? Greta Greta Thornburg? Yeah. She left a good she’s leaving a good impact
Bryan McCartney
in climate change. Yeah.
Jett Crabb-Moore
I usually think of a lot
Bryan McCartney
What about a person who would leave not such a good impression or not such a good impact? Well, there’s
Jett Crabb-Moore
a lot of people throughout history not necessarily on like nature of perspective, but like on people like killing people so that people like Adolf Hitler. Stalin Mauser don’t.
Bryan McCartney
Because you’re a bit of a history buff. Yeah. Yeah. What, what sort of things through history do you tend to gravitate towards?
Jett Crabb-Moore
I like looking at like, well, like. Like, people like experiences and like, what they’ve written down like perspectives, kind of, and there’s a lot of it like when people talk about like, death and like, it’s usually overdramatic, sized a lot. People talking about how people died. But in reality, it would be a lot like well, less her. What’s the word? Like? Heroic? Heroic? Yeah,
Bryan McCartney
yeah. Okay. Your mum works at a funeral home. So do you remember when she first started? What did you think about when
Jett Crabb-Moore
she was I thought it was really funny. Yeah, cuz it’s just different because, well, mum, she used to work at like, like, those machines that like, keep you alive. Like if you have like a heart attack defibrillator. fibula, she used to work at a business like that. But then she switched over to well, helping people to patient to Fievel have already died. And people who are dying. It’s a bit of
Bryan McCartney
a difference. Yeah. Did you think it was strange that she was going to work in a funeral company?
Jett Crabb-Moore
I thought it was pretty cool. Yeah, it was pretty cool that she did that because it was different to everybody else. And a lot of people had different questions at my school and stuff.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Did it make you think more about death and dying?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Yeah, a little bit like the stories that she talks about and stuff. It’s sad, but it’s interesting. Yeah. What makes it interesting just like people’s stories, like a lot of like older people, they have a lot of stories that they can tell and like the their perspective on death can be different to other people’s like they’re just like it’s inevitable. It could be any day now. Yeah, which it really it is for anyone else, but obviously them it’s more likely. Yeah,
Bryan McCartney
of course because Right, like death can happen for anybody at any time. But
Jett Crabb-Moore
for people who are older and yeah, I could be hit by a bus when I’m walking.
Bryan McCartney
Hopefully that doesn’t happen. What do you think happens? So we know sort of physically what happens to our bodies after death? What about sort of either spiritually or esoterically? What do you think happens?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, it’s difficult because, well, because like, obviously, there’s different beliefs and people like different beliefs, like there’s Heaven and Hell, there’s also things Nirvana, or as what that Greek one that’s different that most of them like, revolve around a place after death. But you can, like people want that to be a thing, but it could also just be your health. Certainly how many trillions or billions of years, the universe has been here, you’ll be alive for about 80 or 100, or whatever it is, maybe even two is, but and then once you die, you could there’s a possibility that have there’s a thing like heaven, but it’s also a possibility that everything just, you know, is just nothingness for another, whatever, how long till the universe?
Bryan McCartney
And what would you like to think had happened? What would you like to think happen? Well,
Jett Crabb-Moore
it would be interesting to see something like a heaven because well, just just the thought of just everything stops. Isn’t that fun to think about? But yeah,
Bryan McCartney
yeah. Was heaven something that you had a concept of before mums that are working?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, I go to I go to Anglican school. So there are a lot of people there are well, we go to a very well, I got my school is very multicultural. So we got a lot of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims. Native kids like me, obviously, all with different beliefs. But most kids there are Anglican. Not as many Catholics and yeah, I used to. Well, I I’m only 12. So I haven’t got many, like, I got a lot of time to think about it. Yeah. But like I used to up until a couple years ago, I used to be like God is real ever like Christianity. But now I’m more focused on is more agnostic, really? That there could be possibly I don’t know. Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
And so what does that sort of feel like for you? So if you’ve had this really established belief structure, and then was there a catalyst or a turning point or something that changed your mind? It was just,
Jett Crabb-Moore
it was just like, yeah, like two years ago, a year or two ago, I just started, like, doing a lot more research on stuff and like different people’s beliefs. Because I used to just be like, not they’re all wrong and like this, but how do we know they’re wrong? Like, there’s really I don’t know, so. And I was just like, Huh, that’s interesting. And a lot like religion, especially like Islam and Judaism and Christianity. Obviously, Judaism and Christianity is very similar. But Islam, Judaism, Christianity, it’s very similar. They all have, well, Islam and Christianity, they both branch off each other. Like they all they start off in the same story, they both acknowledge that it’s the same story up until a point until, like, Isaaq, and something and then they branch off into two different branches. Yeah. And but Judaism has always been like a straight line. But they all branched off from Judaism, like a little bit in like, well, it’s all been that general like Mediterranean Israel area.
Bryan McCartney
Because I guess people have this idea of, you know, what Jesus is and what God is, and all of that sort of stuff. But, you know, as we sort of go through life, and we get more a bit more life experience and a bit more life awareness, I think we start to realise that maybe what we learn about as Jesus, especially his appearance wise as children is maybe not, not so much the case. Right. So, you know, I think I was always brought up, you know, in a Catholic faith to understand that Jesus was white guy with long hair, who was a carpenter, but yeah, realistically, was, that’s not possible. You know, he absolutely would have Ben brown skinned and he lives he lived in the Middle East, a very nomadic lifestyle and that sort of stuff. And I find that really interesting. I think, I saw this really great thing on Tik Tok, which was an artist’s impression of what Mary would have actually looked like, you know, and she, she was an incredible picture of what she looked like, and maybe I would have resonated and connected more with that faith had a bit a bit more truthful. I
Jett Crabb-Moore
think, in history, obviously, it’s been a lot, a lot of, obviously racism big in history. So it’s big in our current Yeah, in history. Yeah. And obviously, Islam and Christianity. They’ve been two warring like factions throughout history for 1000s upon 1000s of years, like Spain has been a big part of it. A lot of Eastern Europe like so a lot of the Christians were like, No, we can’t have that one of the peoples obviously. The Middle East has been obviously there’s a lot of like Islam there and like Muslims, so So they were like now we got to have like the especially the Catholic Church, there That was big. So they were like, we even have our figurehead as a white man like your opinion, man. But he wasn’t just interesting.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, it’s very interesting to think if they are willing to make those sorts of adjustments to fit their story, what other adjustments have they made in translating the Bible and all of those sorts of things. But, you know, I think I think faith plays a very big part in life for a lot of people and especially faith plays a big part in death for a lot of people. What do you think when we talk about or when we use the word grief? What do you think grief is? How would you explain grief to someone? Ah,
Jett Crabb-Moore
that’s a difficult one. Well, it’s just kind of like being sad about someone it could just like couldn’t a lot of it it like it’s mostly used in like, the tight like death and but it’s like when people get sad and or it’s just like, there’s obviously a process of grief. The people use like the, like processes, like there’s different, like you go through stages. But obviously, most times when most people, you can get over grief, most people do. Yeah. And over the grief, I’ve had a lot of people in my family die. And yeah, I went through a little bit of grief.
Bryan McCartney
What was your grief experience? Like? What What did that feel like for you if you had to articulate what grief was for you?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Ah, well, my first experience with death, I think, was my uncle Dennis. He died of cancer. And I was quite young. I was like, eight, I think or seven. And that wasn’t that fun. Because he’s always been there is always that fun. Dude, he was in this like, 60s, I think. And that was really upsetting because like, because he always like stayed because my grandma, my grandparents, and like my great girls, I’ve only got my great grandmother now. On my dad’s side, some Aboriginal side. They all live in the same house. And he was always there because he he actually lived in a hospital bed there. He I like his vitals and everything on size. So it was really upsetting to see like the hospital bed there, but he wasn’t in there. Yeah, yeah. And that was just upsetting.
Bryan McCartney
How did you sort of start to feel comfortable with those feelings?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, it’s just the more times because well, we went over there a lot. So like to see everyone else was obviously upset too. So it wasn’t like I was alone and feeling upset. So I could talk to the people around me. And yes, we I went, and we went over there a lot. So that was a lot of people and our family has got a big family on that side. So everyone went around there to, like, 50 people, I think at one time, okay. And yeah, it was just a lot of people grieving and yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Did you find it difficult as a young man to express your emotions freely?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, back then, I would say because I feel like, I’m just difficult. Because like, back then I feel like people put on this, like, stigma that, like men and boys, like supposed to be hard and people and like, they can’t show like there was a lot of high school at point. They can’t show emotions and like they have to be strong. But that’s not really right way to be you have to let emotions out cry. Why do you think that’s important? Well, it’s just a part of the human experience just feeling emotions. being sad, and because it’s, it’s just a thing that happens to everyone. If you’re going to experience death, if you live a full life, your parents or grandparents people in your, like your cousin’s possibly, it’s just human experience. Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Okay. And so when did you do you remember when you started to feel better? Through your grief experience
Jett Crabb-Moore
was probably about like, how many months afterward it would have? Well, about three weeks after I was feeling a bit better, but it was it was still obviously really sad. But I didn’t like obviously you don’t get over it. But you start to feel like better. I probably three, four months afterwards, I started just feeling normal about it.
Bryan McCartney
And do you think that it was that you started to just feel like a new normal, or that you started to just understand and accept?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, that was that was my first experience with deaths. So I was just like, well, that’s because obviously you hear about it all the time, like people die, but you don’t actually understand it until you go through it. And obviously every single every single Pete different people in your life have different importance. And obviously, I would be probably more upset if one of my parents or someone died like that. But until you actually have been in like, in that situation where someone around you died, you don’t understand. So afterwards, I was like, Oh, that’s interesting. That’s not nice, but
Bryan McCartney
yeah, okay. What do you think? A funeral is for why a funeral is important. Do you think funerals are important?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, a lot of like funerals obviously. They’re very like a lot of funerals are religious. In history, so, like if you take out religion, it’s like commemorating the person their experiences and kind of like, accepting it and letting go of not like letting go of them but like, saying, okay, I can do this kind of, like accepting that the fact that they have passed and they’re not going to be walking around with you anymore or talking to you. Just yeah. Commemorating my life and the experiences you’ve had with them.
Bryan McCartney
Okay. Why do you think we have funerals? Where do you think that tradition came from?
Jett Crabb-Moore
I don’t know. I don’t know about that. But I know there’s like obviously funerals they used to happen and like the obvious like I said before the religious explains a lot of like religious stuff, but funerals i It’s difficult.
Bryan McCartney
What do you think they’re important?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Yeah, that’s just for I think, just like letting the person go experiencing just yeah.
Bryan McCartney
There’s evidence through history that funerals are one of the oldest practice traditions in every civilization throughout history. But why do you think that funerals might have been such a big part of every civilization in every evolution?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, I know like back in, probably up until like, 3000 years ago, when like the way back when people still you were going like cities and towns and stuff. People used a barrier they’re like, with the most like precious things. I know the Egyptians they buried them with their like, they they’re like the usually the kings and stuff, they’d buried them with their wives and their wives were alive, they’d bury them with their servants or servants were alive like 100 servants and they’d all just starve to death with their cats and cats obviously, because cats are a big part of the ancient Egyptian religions and my back before that people would bury their like with the like favourite hunting tool that they would they they’d hand off like their stuff to their children and like their family and stuff, but they’re probably their most treasured item. If it’s like a family heirloom that they’d have they’d probably bury it with them. Like that. All their clothing their favourite clothing if it’s not, like ceremony, like they’d have like ceremonial clothing and they bury them in kind of like today like people like I sometimes can. You can like it was one of my grandmother’s I think on my life. I don’t know what she was in my family but she got buried in my funeral. She had her like, favourite dress on Yeah, and that was a sheet. Yeah, everyone thought out that’s a good idea but and people were their favourite clothing or like ceremonial stuff and different religions.
Bryan McCartney
And when we talk about the pharaohs in Egypt, and that sort of stuff being you know, buried or in termed, which is what would happen usually then with all of their belongings and their valuables and those sorts of things you know why they used to do that?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well just like a take it because they believe that once you die as a pharaoh and like once you’re born you usually once you die, you become more your God at that point. And well, they’ll all the Egyptian pharaohs, the God that you like became was a male god. So that’s why Cleopatra actually had to wear a fake beard because she was the male she was that male god but like once you died, there are several of that God, which, and you’d all but you’d have to live with all the stuff that you had at that point. And once you die, like once you have to be like you have to be like mummified and stuff to go into that afterlife. Usually it’s just in like a lot of the poor people leaders had like a painted like a painted sober coffin thing. And like public burial terms and stuff, or just just wrapped in like a just big public term thing. And they would go into the last kind of like a seven second civilization thing. Second World.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. What do you think makes a good funeral? Now in this day and age, what do you think would make a good funeral?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Probably just like all the people that you, the person loved and all people that like, all things surrounded by things that the person loved. Like if they really liked something like gardening or flowers, they’d be flowers and like, their favourite plants and stuff at the funeral, or just like people basically just all their favourite things and all the people who shared their like, who, who had them in their life and talk to them and yeah, just like, love them, and they love them back. Just around there and just all grieving together and all accepting the fact that they have passed.
Bryan McCartney
Do you think having those things like you know, you mentioned for, you know, someone who liked gardens and those sorts of things, having flowers and things that are meaningful to that person? Do you think that makes it a more meaningful funeral?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Yeah, because you’re taking you’re taking into consideration the stuff that they liked, not just like, the stuff that the people thought they would like or just like the stuff they actually enjoyed or just not just like a plain simple thing. It was just like a room of blank room just with someone talking about them. And yeah,
Bryan McCartney
so it’s a bit more personal. Yeah, yeah. Okay. When we talk about things like, you know, people leaving a legacy after their death, what do you think that means? Or how would you explain what a legacy is
Jett Crabb-Moore
kind of like the story that you leave behind and like, basically what people think of you as, like, David Attenborough probably leave a pretty good legacy of someone who cared about the environment who made a difference in climate change. But someone like someone who’s like someone who committed mass genocide, as I said, like Hitler, or Stalin wouldn’t probably leave such a good legacy, because he’s just known as a tyrant or someone who didn’t care about people around them, or just the people that he ruled over or just people in general or anything.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Okay. Do you think it’s important to leave a good legacy?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, it’s, it’s an interesting one, because obviously, people, obviously, I’d want to leave a good legacy for people in my family, because you can leave like a family legacy. Like, if you did good, that means but people will expect your family to do stuff that you do, which can be interesting. But you can leave a good family legacy or legacy or for yourself, like for someone who cared about other people who? Yeah, I think it’s important to do that. Okay.
Bryan McCartney
Why do you think it is that people feel and think differently about death of children, as opposed to death of an elderly person?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, comparing the two, obviously, a death of a child, children don’t have an experience the same amount of stuff that say, like someone who died, and they’re five compared to someone who died, and they’re 95. So that’s a 90 a difference. So they’ve obviously lived a lot longer and had a lot more experiences, knowing the people around them known, didn’t met different people lived a life, had children of their own had seen the different legacy generations past. But if you like, if you die for some reason, and you’re five, you don’t want to have those experiences and haven’t met those fields. So basically, just in your life, it’s just your close family and your family around you. But obviously, you start off at like school and stuff, but you don’t have those same experiences.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. So do you think it’s because they feel like that person the child, for example, has been robbed of the opportunity for experience? Yeah,
Jett Crabb-Moore
definitely. They’ve been robbed of those experiences and those light in their life, the people that they could have met that, like this thing, so they could have seen and it’s just like, as I said before, probably it’s a lot different to like, a 95 year old, you’ve gone through this stuff.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Okay. Do you think that there are things we can learn from people’s death?
Jett Crabb-Moore
I think, yeah, we can. Obviously, you can learn different things. You can learn different things about the person, you can learn different things about the people around you. If they did something, and then they thought, I don’t, and then in there like, like, before they die or something, they tell people about it, you can you can acknowledge that and be like, I probably shouldn’t do that. If they told you a story and then died, or like they did something silly, and then they died over it. You can really be like, I really shouldn’t do that. And you could learn from them be more responsible? I guess. Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Okay. So learn from other people’s errors or mistakes.
Jett Crabb-Moore
And like their different life experiences and stuff like that. Yeah. Okay.
Bryan McCartney
Do you think it is important? Or is it a good thing or a bad thing that we talk about death,
Jett Crabb-Moore
I think it’s a pretty good thing that people should people should talk about death, because it’s a thing that’s going to come to a soul. I don’t think we’re ever really going to find something. Well, it’s possible but far, far future that we’re going to find someone who’s like a mortal, and it would do perfectly, it would suck to be immortal, because you’re going to witness the death of all your loved ones, the destruction of the earth and like four sons is going to explode and like 400 billion years, you’re gonna have to just sit there through it, and just experience and just sit there. So talking about death is important. You can like people just knowing and accepting it, and not trying to change anything about it. Just be like, accepting and be like, what I really need to I want to do something for everyone else before I eventually do die. And people like knowing that and accepting the fact that they need like they should, obviously people should, where they can if they want to, but I reckon people should try and do something positive for the earth before they die. So I reckon it’s pretty important that we talk about death. What do
Bryan McCartney
you think is some positive things people could do for the Earth?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Trying to change the way A that we produce items. Global Peace would be a pretty good thing. It’s not likely at all, if there isn’t a global like a major war that happens this century, it’s likely never going to happen again. But obviously, there are different things like Ukraine was happening in Ukraine currently, which isn’t that good. That could be changed. The way we mind item like things and resource, how we manage resources would be a good thing. I’m eliminating, like people’s, obviously negative perspectives that affect other people, getting people just to accept the fact that there are different people out there who have different beliefs and just being able to accept the fact that there, there’s going to be and there’s going to be forever. And you’re going to everyone’s different. There is no one on earth that is the exact same as you and just accepting that.
Bryan McCartney
That’s great. If last question, if, if you could give some advice to people in your age group. So let’s say let’s say people age nine to 15, on how they could cope with the loss of a loved one with someone’s death. What would you say?
Jett Crabb-Moore
Well, obviously, Grief is a normal human thing. If you the more you deny it, the more the worse, you’re going to feel about it. So just accepting the fact that they have passed and being around people who understand your feelings, and especially like expressing your emotions is a really good thing. Don’t just hide it away. And it’s and it’s also okay to cry, which is a good thing as a good sentence. Like a good life memo. Yeah, and just basically just you can express yourself however you want. As long as it isn’t affecting the people around you. Just hopefully try and do it in like a non negative way, expressing your feelings,
Bryan McCartney
healthily, a healthy, emotional way.
Jett Crabb-Moore
Yeah, just just like saying that you especially like, if you’re going through something, especially talking to you doesn’t even have to be your parents, if it could just be one of the people your school. Like, like for in case like my school, there’s lots of teachers at my school who were like, you can talk to us about anything. Like, if you’re not comfortable talking to your parents, you can talk to us, especially talking to like a sibling, because they’re usually in the same like bracket. If you’re if they’re in the if they’re like similar age, even if they’re not similar age, obviously, there’s a different relationship you have with your parents and like your siblings, because they’ve gone through the same experience as you or they’re about to go through the same experiences as you. So it’s definitely important to talk to them. If you’re not comfortable talking to your parents or something. I probably talk to them. I don’t know. My sister’s like one, so I can’t really talk to her yet, anyway. Yeah. But yeah, I’ve probably a few years older. I probably talked to her before I talked to anyone else.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Jett, it’s been really great talking to you today. Thanks for coming in to share your perspectives and your opinions. It’s been really good. And I have to say I’m very comfortable knowing that the future is in the hands of you and other people in your generation. Because it’s it’s been nothing but impressive to listen to your talk today. So thanks for being with us.
Jett Crabb-Moore
Thank you for having me. It’s been a fun experience.
Bryan McCartney
Glad to hear you take care. We’ll talk soon. You You’re listening to ushering death. Follow us on all good podcast apps or an usheringdeath.com.au