Transcript
Bryan McCartney
You’re listening to Ushering Death. Follow us on all good podcast apps or at usheringdeath.com.au. On the 28th of March 2015 29 year old Gold Coast’s woman Evita Sarmonikas died after undergoing cosmetic surgery in Mexico. Her family were initially told that she had died of a heart attack following the surgery, but they arranged for an independent autopsy and that revealed that evaders right lung had been punctured with a liposuction cannula five times, her family fought for justice and truth to prevent further unnecessary deaths at the hands of an incompetent doctor. Today, I’m talking to Evita’s sister, Andrea, and we hear about their journey after the loss of Evita. It’s interesting when you sort of talk about social glue, when a person dies, that glue is absolutely stretched and changed. How does that affect people in sort of times of grief?
Andy Solange
Stress, like you said that it’s stretched right? Because it doesn’t disappear. Yeah, it does. The interesting thing that the body passes, but the connection does not disappear. And, and something I’ve been dying to talk to you about Brian, since since we first met about how unprepared we are for the death. Yeah, even though it’s like the single most predictable thing.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, well, Death comes for all of us. Right as there’s no way out. There’s no way or follow through death.
Andy Solange
No one’s gonna escape it. Yeah. So then he tends to impact at least us in the West pretty negatively. And, and I guess different cultures as well. But I don’t think the modern mind is very well prepared for it. So we get that sort of traumatic response in individuals. But I think we can shift that. As a
Bryan McCartney
psychologist, what sort of advice do you give to people who are struggling with that shift in their social glue in their family structure in their normal?
Andy Solange
Yep. So when it’s one of my favourite topics, actually, it’s not something I specialise in, even though I’ve got some lived experience there. It is something I do know a lot about. So we, I tend to just explain to them this is meant to hurt. That’s gonna hurt for a while. And you’re allowed to hurt. And then what if, what if we could teach your brain how to be comfortable? feeling hurt? Yeah. Is that possible? Is that possible? It’s totally possible. You’re like, yes, you can continue to function. You can continue to cultivate the business, cultivate friendships, even though you’re you’re hurting, even though you’re grieving. You don’t have to be immobilised by it. It’s life slows down. And it’s a beautiful opportunity to slow down. And so it should. So I tell them, we’re going to use this very difficult experience as an opportunity to expand who you are as a human.
Bryan McCartney
So do you think that pain becomes part of people’s new normal, when they sort of progress through that grief journey and that recovery or healing journey,
Andy Solange
the ones that recover well tend to redefine their definition of suffering and and loss? Definitely, I’ve seen that.
Bryan McCartney
Now you have your own experience with loss and with grief, tell us a reader’s story. What Well, first and foremost, Demeter is your sister, tell us about her? What was she like?
Andy Solange
It’s been a long time since I’ve talked about her in a public setting. And I’m going to work hard not to get emotional because I want to stick to the content,
Bryan McCartney
your emotions are very welcome here.
Andy Solange
To take off my psychological hat and just be
Bryan McCartney
supportive everyone listening is offering you their support.
Andy Solange
Eva, was it was a brilliant human being see how I said it. I was gonna I was gonna say is, and that’s okay, cuz she’s still He is right. That’s the thing. Like, in my mind, she is still soul alive.
Bryan McCartney
Because it’s all about maintaining those bonds, and that connection, post death, you know, like, all of those things don’t cease to exist, just the physicality of those things says, the actual memory, the love the feeling heart. That’s all still there.
Andy Solange
And, and I think, again, teaching, learning for me that so much of life isn’t just the concrete. So much of it is unseen, intangible. So for me, Eva is is still very much present. per symbol is alive and has an impact in my life and in our community. But her growing up, it was interesting because we kind of immerse characters. Okay, so Eva was super, like, demanding as a little baby, like, even as a little baby, she would always get her way. I would almost envy her capacity to give her persistence, that dominance. And she was definitely very, very open and very much her way. And I was a little bit more introverted. And then I think as we got older and grew up she became I think we taught her to become more, unfortunately, I think now, but um, but yeah, so then As she developed she was less less self centred, not very self centred at all actually. And tender, very feminine people that that know the story also her pictures very feminine she moved into fashion and to design intelligent she she did her international business at university. Mostly people don’t know but she did. She did three years of theology. Yeah, well as well. Yeah. She She managed businesses, she helped people launch businesses a bit like you in that entre very entrepreneurial, but her nature very unique. Brian, the sort of person you meet, and you think I’ve never met someone like that before? Yeah. And it’s me and 1000s of people that know this about her. And I know people say we idealise those that go, but I can’t think of her faults, like, besides standard human faults is just a really special human character. Yeah, lots lots to say there, I think,
Bryan McCartney
yeah. Tell us about her her story. What is your story?
Andy Solange
Again, what what we share that there’s so much to that to what happened. And think in terms of what should be shared now. Maybe things that will come out later, it’s sort of part of mom’s working on she’s writing her story. So I’ll probably leave some of that stuff to mum. But um, Eva, from a from a general perspective, was a young woman healthy, very physically healthy. And she she she was born a modern woman. And she wanted to enhance her physical appearance. And based on the research, yeah, she she had investigated that it was totally possible and it’s safe. These operations supposedly happen all the time. Yeah. And a lot of women and and men now have the assumption that it’s a totally regulated healthy industry. She didn’t know that it wasn’t. Yeah, so her story ended in terrible tragedy, terrible tragedy. And the percentage of the lives of women that all patients that end up in tragedy is a lot more than we know. And that’s coming to the surface now. Yeah. So she was 29, when she decided to have a Brazilian butt lift. So that’s an enhancement of the buttocks area, they remove some of your own fat from the top part of your body, and then inject that fat into the bottom area. And you need to have certain qualifiers to meet this criteria to participate in this procedure. And one of the things we learned later is that the doctor did say we need you to put on some more weight before you come over for the operation. And fundamentally, it wasn’t large enough at the top. Yeah. So she went thinking she was in the hands of a specialist. He was certified by the boards of the Mexican plastic surgeon Association. He was reconstructive plastic surgeon registered by the authorities, the correct authorities as well. But what wasn’t understood is that a plastic reconstructive surgeon specialises specialises with sick patients with injured patients in public hospitals. Dealing with a healthy patient that doesn’t have any injuries is a whole other industry. Yeah. And Brian, people don’t know that we don’t have that industry. Can you do you know, one university where a doctor can go and do a master’s in cosmetic surgery to specialise? No, not one to one. So that’s, that’s a delicate topic, which we won’t get into today, because it’s medical legal stuff.
Bryan McCartney
And I think we have a really different medical system here, right, where we probably trust that, I guess we’re not we’re not in a developing nation or that sort of thing that our adopters in our governments have our best interest, whereas potentially, that’s not the case everywhere, right.
Andy Solange
It’s an assumption. Yeah. And interestingly APRA, which is the the governing body in Australia that regulates this in the health industries, just put out a survey asked me if you’ve had cosmetic surgery, injuries or concerns, please report them to us. So it looks like it’s gone. It will get regulated. But it is very experimental at the moment there are no universities. Yeah, when people need but that’s, that’s part of our campaign and the awareness. I get very upset that it’s a delicate topic that led me to death literally almost to death, I should say and I had to put it on the shelf and come back home and and deal with grief itself which is a whole other area.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. So Aveda is going over to Mexico to have this procedure then what happens
Andy Solange
so she went over? Very excited. She went over with her with her partner and we received a phone call It was really, it was the 20th of March, the night before. And we were celebrating, we did a Woman’s Day event. We were celebrating that evening for a cultural event, and had a really great night. It was one of those, it was sort of one of those months that were really amazing. And feeling really empowered Eva was in a great place professionally, she was all excited about what she was doing, we were in a really good place as well. And so the next day, we woke up, and I got a phone call. And it was one of Eva’s friends who had been informed by the partner. And it was it was shocking. We were told that she had died. Okay. And it the psychology of that if I can remove myself from the memory because I don’t want to trigger myself. Yeah, of course. By the the psychology or the it was just a shock. It was like hitting a wall. It was like being hit by a truck. And then and then began this, it we couldn’t just deal with the grief unfortunately, because there was so many questions. The the cremated, the plastic surgeon wanted to send this out beautifully. But back in an urn. Yeah, he wanted to cremate her. He was telling the partner Don’t worry, I’ll pay for everything. We later discovered that that’s what he’d been doing with the patients. It was more than one Eva was not the first woman that had died on his table. He’d never been investigated for anything like this. So we didn’t know anything, nothing of that. So then wonderful that the Australian Embassy sort of advised us not to not to do anything without legal advice not to do anything without a second autopsy, very professional. So we went by those sort of, I guess, with that education and went over and demanded a second autopsy, because the first one had already been conducted. Right. And that that began, again, a medical legal investigation. That may be maybe another talk. Yeah, absolutely. Because it was it was. So basically, it was traumatic the whole time, two and a half years of trauma. It’s still traumatic to this day, because the case remained unresolved, even though we brought all the evidences forward. But that’s a three hour documentary. Brian, you don’t want that?
Bryan McCartney
We might have to do that in part, potentially. Yeah.
Andy Solange
But in terms of in terms of the death, so then when someone has passed, and that’s traumatic, that doubles the layer of the of the issue. What I wanted to sort of bring forward today was more the, how we processed how what death then became after Evers, you know, after I experienced this traumatic death, and then death, in and of itself, the philosophy around that. Yeah. And but
Bryan McCartney
before we do that, I’m, I’m interested, you talk about, you know, that feeling of shock straightaway, when you told him that’s such a normal feeling? How did you sort of, you know, make sure that your own health at that time was okay, how did you look after yourself in that state of shock?
Andy Solange
Good question. Because when you’re hit by shock like that, it’s almost impossible unless you have a team of people around you. It’s very difficult for you, because you, you almost associate you disconnect, because the suffering is so severe. And that’s a normal response. So it was our community. Everyone came to batch, Brian, within 24 hours of somebody published the news on Facebook, and it went international. The support wasn’t just our community, like I made it people it was international. And that’s again, what allowed us to get as far as we did with the investigation to discover what we discovered. But it’s the support the psychosocial support. People were feeding us people who are doing I felt like I felt immobile. And it was the community around us that came to bat.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. And like through your experience, it hasn’t been a normal experience for you. Like, you know, you’ve had media to deal with and legal cases and all this sort of stuff to deal with. How did you sort of healthfully process that grief? What, what what did that look like for you?
Andy Solange
So the first was in 2017, when it hit me physiologically, I wasn’t looking after myself. Unfortunately, if it was it, because of the people around us is what helped me sustain food. I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t sleep. I was reading and reading and reading and reading and reading and investigating and phone calls and emails and messages. And so physiologically I wasn’t. So I know what I know how to support someone. And I think when somebody goes through a traumatic incident, it is up to this company. needed to come to bat. Yeah. So then a psychologist, we would teach people how to support somebody going through a difficult expectation, a traumatic incident, because that individual is in shock. Yeah. And to expect the traumatised individual to respond in a healthy, normal way would be the abnormal expectation. Yeah, and can cause more damage. So quite frankly, mum and I, and we’re pretty much useless for that period. And then, because the investigation kept hitting walls, we had a pretty traumatising interview what we had was, I think I re traumatise myself. Unfortunately, CHANNEL SEVEN helped us go and confront the doctor.
Bryan McCartney
I watched that you watched it? I did. Yeah.
Andy Solange
I watch that. Whenever I go to watch it again, I get re traumatised. So that probably wasn’t the most intelligent decision even though it was helpful in some regard, psychologically, it wasn’t.
Bryan McCartney
And I think when I watched it, I immediately thought to myself, I like I felt terrible for you, because it was such a build up and such a lead up to this. Let’s get some answers. And let’s get some closure. And that didn’t happen for you from what I saw, and that was traumatising.
Andy Solange
And I think that was, again, back to when you’re in that traumatic state, and you’re dealing with something so horrific. You need to have a community around you that can advise, because you’re not being logical. You’re not being you’re not, you’re not grounded either. And, and it’s very likely that that was that wasn’t the right decision for me in that moment. So I had this idea. I remember it was like an epiphany during that. So I was. So I basically spent most of my time in Mexico with lawyers learning about how do we move through this through the judicial system. And I had this epiphany that the doctor knows exactly what happened. And that the doctor and everyone in that operating room knows exactly what happened. And then I had this vision that because I am having this difficult time processing this, he must be having a difficult time. Could you imagine meeting Eva? All excited? And I know that a part of him? Because he’s not a psychopath? I don’t believe so. But I can imagine he met her he thought, Yes, we’re going to protect your body, we’re going to do these great things they would have he must have had an an interesting discussion with Eva because he chose him as a doctor to do this with her. And can you imagine noticing that the 29 year old life that was in your hands,
Bryan McCartney
the vibrant, beautiful, ready for the future?
Andy Solange
She was getting, you know, she was at the beginning of her of her of her next era? Yeah. And go on. So then I sort of put myself in that perspective. And inset in this illusion, that he wants to be alleviated from this, too. And that we don’t have to take this to court. And all he has to say is that yes, I actually wasn’t trained. I wasn’t specialised I learned in the clan, this Demian by my mate that taught me how to do it on some patient that consented for us to experiment on her body probably didn’t even know she was being experimented on, on this on right. So then that was my expectation. Very, very childlike, I think, in the hope that we could do when I just got triggered, there’s a video of me screaming like a lunatic, I think in his office. So it wasn’t good for me. I think, if, if anything positive came from it was that he knew Australia was watching. Yeah. And that really helped. He knew that everybody here was watching from back home, and that he had to tread carefully, which is why we got as far as we did legally.
Bryan McCartney
I think it’s important that people understand, though, that that’s as such a normal thing to want to achieve is those answers to those questions. And for someone to take responsibility when we feel that, you know, someone has had a deliberate hand in someone’s passing, we want them to own up to it. You know, that’s, that’s what we’re taught as children to just turn your wrongs. You know, say sorry. And so that’s normal. That’s such a normal experience to want her.
Andy Solange
You’re right. That’s true. That is true. Yeah. And I think as I think I remember, I remember realising that if we win this case, this man goes to jail, and loses his profession. And I also did, no, I didn’t want anyone to go to jail. I just I thought, Look, let’s take responsibility. Let’s find a way around this. And I think that was the bit that he would, you know, I knew that if he confessed if he talked about the truths, we could negotiate lower sentences and sentences, etc. But, um, but yeah, that that you’re right. It was that ideal that justice prevails. And no, in this case, it really didn’t.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. And I think that’s a really strong testament to you and your character to say that you didn’t want anyone to go to jail or be punished necessarily. You just didn’t want anyone else to experience what you had experienced. Right?
Andy Solange
That that was the that was literally the the motivation. We didn’t want anyone else Anyone else to to be deceived into into suffer likes, because it was such an unnecessary consequence. Yeah. And it was probably a couple of probably a month after we had passed I had this woman reach out to me there was there was hundreds and hundreds Brian of people that came out with their stories. And there was this family specifically. And we, we honed in on this case, because it was her sister that had died two years before with the same doctor, almost the same story. And when she she came to see me, we met in San Diego, and we crop him. And she shared with telling me she said, she said and if I had done something, maybe this wouldn’t have happened to Eva. And as we cried, and and she was in she has a family she had you know her career, her profession this is I’m Belinda Alcon who’s a hero in my in my life. Because she inspired so much she was in the background a lot and then came to the forefront when it was their time. And I said to her that was impossible for you because you didn’t know you didn’t have we had international support. They just had their family. But she knew something was wrong. And then that story just made me think we cannot let this happen again. And hence the two and a half year journey afterwards.
Bryan McCartney
We’re gonna take a short break and we’ll be right back.
This episode is brought to you by McCartney family funerals. It’s family that makes us different and family that makes us better. Visit us and McCartney funerals.com.au
Bryan McCartney
love your sister is Australia’s hardest working cancer vanquishing charity, and since its inception in 2012 has raised over $14 million for medical research. Founded by gold lurgi winning actor and 2018 Victorian Australian of the Year Samuel Johnson, love your sister is a million strong village of everyday Aziz committed to vanquishing cancer with hard science and the best new technologies. Love UCSD supports personalised treatment for all cancer patients. Whatever the cancer regardless of location, income or status, they strive for the right treatment for every cancer patient first time every time. Lobbyists used to proudly pass on 100% of every donation received to scientific research and personalised treatment. No skimming no bullshit. You can help McCartney family funeral support love your sister by visiting McCartney funerals.com.au forward slash l y s. Love you see Stan So Andy, tell me a bit about more around the things that you did to then move through your grief journey.
Andy Solange
Yeah, so I think because it was so traumatising. I had to really work hard to then how am I going to transform this really dark, dark thing? Because it had gotten very, very, very, very dark. And disconnecting from the pain was only useful when I had to do interviews or I had to be at the legal hearings, etc, etc. So then, a real cognitive journey began. So this was very a very cognitive thing. I had to really think about, what am I going to do with this. And I remember I was I had flown back to Australia. And I went to see one of my favourite mentors, Clive Jones, Dr. Clyde Jones, actually, he’s a psychologist, one of my greatest, one of my very big inspirations for being a psychologist today. And I went to see him and I told him the story. And I said, Look, I don’t know, I think I’m I don’t know if I’m processing this normally, because I don’t, you know, so we began to talk about this. And then he said to me, well, when did they indicate to just feel the pain of the loss of his sister? And he always asked me this question, even to this day. He always comes back to it. And I’m and I was like, well, in that moment, I didn’t know. And I went and it was curious. And I felt like I had an answer because I didn’t feel her gone. I said to him, I don’t feel like she is dead. So I’m not feeling the loss of that. But I’ve got this trauma to deal with this this lady investigation. So then I remember going back to Mexico, because we had been called back for the hearing. There’s there was a federal investigation and there was a state investigation. We’re managing both. And I went back and then I thought, Where are my tears? I was really blocked up. And then I sat down and I compiled a video of all of a bunch of her pictures. And then I put some music on it. And I think I watched that video or Over and over and over and over again. And I became told what she was tears like just, it felt like a shower of tears. And it was the first time in my life where suffering felt beautiful. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, oh my goodness, this is this is where it’s been the whole time and he showered me. And instead of emptying the way that the trauma was the way that the case was, it was filling me. And we would call it suffering because I was crying. But I don’t know what the name is, Brian, and maybe you get to see this in your people. But this was probably two years after, I think, yeah. And I realised that it was the first time I wanted to suffer, if that’s what this thing was. And I honoured it, I honoured it. Does that make sense?
Bryan McCartney
Absolutely. And I think, you know, we talked to our families about not being strong, but being brave, because with bravery, we can accomplish short things in short spaces of time. And that’s all we need to do right now is just be brave for this moment. And we see it in families, they get to this point of acceptance, and not acceptance of death and acceptance of a person’s life ending, but acceptance of their feeling and acknowledgement of that feeling. And we, when people die, you would notice as well, we, we don’t want to face it, we don’t want to look at it, we don’t want to have to feel the things that we feel. So we bottle everything up. And we we stop ourselves. But then there comes that time, where you have to take the top off, you’ve got to take the cork out, and you’ve got to let it flow. You’re right, it’s a beautiful moment, it will
Andy Solange
and I think if if if I hadn’t chosen it, if I hadn’t crafted the moment, like with the pictures, and with the music, and then accessing all the memories, I probably wouldn’t have felt that the way that I felt it. And then I began and I realised what was hurting was that we were not going to get to live the life that we had the rest of all the things, right, that we would do together the rest of the things that she would achieve, it was the loss of that. And then I realised that if I, if I put that on the shelf for a bit, that that’s what’s hurting me that, that her she can’t, she will not continue her life. And then and then I would go back into the past into all of our beautiful memories that were that were just nourishing, that would just reassuring, even smiling through the tears. And then I would come back to the present moment and realise here I am holding the future in the past in memory of my sister or the Vita and and again began this journey of how to understand this process. Because I didn’t want to take the traditional model that oh my god poor me lost her sister. And then Mom really helped with this as well. It was more, we began to focus on all the incredible things she had achieved. And all the journalists there was 1000s of journalists that came in and did a report on EVA. different languages, different countries, some interviewed us some interviewed other people. And they did a really good job of digging up her story. Yeah, well, I guess she was a professional this and she did this and that just kept highlighting her achievements. And I thought how wonderful. And there was just a reminder that these two little 29 year old got to live so much. And then began this cognitive experience of how do I interpret this horrible thing that has happened? Because I do not want to taint it. This isn’t just the horrible surgeon death. Surgical death. This isn’t just the trauma, the lies or deceptions, this is tainting what, what has occurred to her soul to her psyche. So that’s what I mean by cognitive. It was a real work. And of course, processing it with my friends who are super, super cognitive as well, and reframe how do i reframe this experience? Because I’m not going to let it be tainted?
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, let’s talk about that reframing for a second. So you know, that idea of we mourn what a person misses out on after their death. Whereas when we reframe that exact experience, were celebrating the things they have achieved and done. Talk Talk a bit more through the concept and the process of what it is to reframe.
Andy Solange
Yes. So it’s a bit of cognitive acrobatics, I always tell clients or patients and, and we can do that, so people don’t realise that they can play with their perspective. And that you can actually harness what you pay attention to, like a laser. Yeah, it requires training. And so it’s quite literally like manipulating a ball of dough or, or clay, for example. And you know, you can play with the clay and shape it. We can do a similar thing with their cognitions obviously, cognitive psychology is psychology, you know. So it is a task and then you ask questions, you look for evidences as well. This is one of the models that we tend to use, what’s the evidence for what you’re believing? Yeah. So then it was like, Oh, she’s not going to get to live her life. And then the evidence well, who says she didn’t get to live a life? Yeah, that’s a reframe. Yeah. And so then feeling like she has lost and then coming back and then Bring your perspective to well hold on, what are all the things that she did get to live as a 29 year old? Yeah. And who says that she didn’t actually possibly do more in her 29 years, then you’re going to the New Deal in your 29 years. And the evidence kept flowing. Yeah. Didn’t her 29 years she had lived quite the life, travel the world, developed a career touched endless numbers of people. And so then you use the evidence to create a more evidence based idea, rather than the illusion that all she has lost all of this, who said life is promised to us? Who says long life is even promised?
Bryan McCartney
And lost? Or who is the great question? Yeah. Because if he does not morning, what she’s missed, it says that’s. And I think it’s, you know, it’s part of our journey of coming to terms with death, that we have to find the reason of who is actually mourning that. And you know, when it comes to the realisation that it’s not Vita that’s morning, that because she has lived, completely lived, and by the sounds of it abundantly and beyond what you would expect, it’s, it’s us, it’s us that we struggle with that, because what fills that space?
Andy Solange
Yeah, great. That’s an actually, that probably brings me back to the next cognitive task. And there was this sense of arrogance. And I notice under there, this belief, so it’s, these are core beliefs that we also look at in cognitive psychology. And these core beliefs, really define a lot of our ideas and a lot of our behaviours, and then impact how we feel. So after digging deep, I noticed I had this this belief that these things shouldn’t happen. And that these things shouldn’t happen to someone like me. Yeah. And it’s not something you think at the forefront. But underneath it, the sense of arrogance. Yeah. And then I said, who said, who said that, that I cannot experience chaos? Yeah. And who said that I was not going to experience tragedy like this. Yeah. And in fact, that you have a lot of evidence that you have been that you have witnessed chaos and that you have experienced tragedy tragedy in the past. Yeah. So then I began to remove myself from the ego centeredness of that suffering. And then realised I was having an experience of loss. And I was witnessing death of the person I adored the most. And I think she was my healthiest, closest attachment, because he was my sister. Yeah. More than anybody else, actually. So then, that was it was feeling so suffering. Yeah. Because of me, the suffering was stemming because of me, you’re right. And that and when, if I could see it from, from that person, from the perspective of the life, she already lived, in how she enjoyed it. And the interesting thing, Brian, and this is something I bring into therapy quite a lot, is that she made it that March before she passed away. It was her birthday. So the fourth of March is her birthday, she passed away on the 28th of March. And she had we got word from friends and from mom, that she had been messaging friends. And just having conversations with them was really quite presidential in this regard. And one of the things she said to Mom was that if she ever died, she would die happy. Wow, she had lived a beautiful life, like literally reaffirming, so mom had this beautiful thing. nugget of wisdom, right. And then another thing is that she had been sending everybody a verse from ecclesiastics. It’s a biblical verse. in it. It says there is a time to laugh and a time to cry and a time to live in a time to die. And just just these bizarre little stories we could getting from people have a little journey she had somehow undergone in mind, no idea what that’s about. Yeah. You know, traditionally, spiritually speaking, a Christian would say that, you know, her spirit. Yeah, maybe led by God or Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And as a psychologist, that I’m put my finger on anything there because we explore whatever the client wants to explore. But in my case, it was very transcendental. And I began, and then I began to sort of almost believe that maybe we get to choose when we go, wouldn’t it be nice to believe that?
Bryan McCartney
Or maybe we have those little moments of peace that come to us that help us to prepare? Because, you know, like, death for us physically has to be a moment of trauma. It’s something different that we we don’t know, and it’s the unknown. So, you know, maybe depends on your belief or like we try not to give opinions about
Andy Solange
people. Oh, my belief especially. But it is at least what Well, one thing we can both agree on, is that a type of reviewing what your beliefs systems are in that moment, is very important.
Bryan McCartney
There was recently a study that was done with some researchers on a person who was in an, I want to say a CT scanner, and maybe they had the brain scanners on at the same time they were in the AECT and the person happened to do I in that period of time, and it was the first time that had been able to physically capture all of the things going on in the brain at the time of death. And they, you know, there was some really interesting stuff that came out of that they talked about, you know, that concept of reliving your life and you know, having that review sort of thing happen in those moments is looks like might be a legitimate thing. But yeah, I
Andy Solange
think I and then, so then the, the brainwaves were, were really active. And lots of thinking and lots of memory going on. Exactly, I think
Bryan McCartney
lots of recall. Yeah, it was interesting. And you know, some people would say to you, oh, yeah, that’s your spiritual consciousness, whatever that might be showing you all the things that you did, amazingly, others might say, well, scientifically, that’s your brain doing what it’s supposed to do to protect you from trauma and harm. And then others would say, Well, you know, that’s just what happens.
Andy Solange
Well, and this is the interesting thing, and I think the mainstream tends to forget, right? It’s all about the science, the science, the science. The science is an empirical method that helps us assess facts, truth, data, stimulus, etc. However, there is a lot that science can’t answer. And death is one of them. A consciousness, I was going to consciousness. Yeah. So we’re still exploring where we can’t open your brain and go, oh, there’s consciousness. Yeah, you know, we know what your hypothalamus is. We know where the prefrontal cortex is. But we don’t know where consciousness lives. But we see it in France. We know your personality, your thoughts where your core beliefs live. Yeah. And that’s yeah, there’s a lot that still mysterious that we’re using scientific methods to explore. Yeah. But these in, which is why people like you and I, and I got to come and tell people this is these are the facts. This
Bryan McCartney
is what happens. And it’s interesting as well, because it’s not like, especially when a person passes. It’s not like you can go oh, hey, just before you finish completely, could you just answer these questions for us? You know, there’s no, there’s no way to measure? There’s no way maybe we’re not we’re not supposed to know, right? Maybe that’s just there. When it’s not supposed to,
Andy Solange
we’re not supposed to Yeah, we’re not capable, we wouldn’t have the functions to know something, again. In this reframing, because I wanted to be I realised that the model of death that I had was very negative, that death is bad. People shouldn’t die. And this kind of goes against the facts. Yeah, people die all the time, people will continue to die. And it’s the most predictable thing that we can count on, you can count on. How many things can we count on
Bryan McCartney
birth, death attacks.
Andy Solange
Line,
Bryan McCartney
time to time, you know, and I think love is another great example of those things that we’re not, we’re not entitled to anything, nothing is promised. Nothing is supposed to be there. It’s all part of our journey. But I want to just look at grief as a result of trauma is a bit of a different type of grief to somebody else, you know, that might be experiencing the loss of old Arnie Ethel, who was 106 and died of natural causes in his sleep, like, the grief that comes from trauma is very different, completely talk to us a bit about that for
Andy Solange
you. So, so I got to witness it firsthand. Of course, I knew I knew the theories on it, right? The evidence and the research and the findings on it. And it is very, very different. And we must never confuse the two. Because that we can do a lot of harm to the patient or the client. And you would you would know that someone. Grief is a normal, healthy, beautiful and dark experience of adjusting to change and loss. And then trauma is like a psychological injury. Yeah. And that needs to be treated quite differently. So then we would. So in my case, there’s sort of a stem that if you have a traumatic experience, if you’re still experiencing symptoms, after six months, then we would be looking at an adjustment disorder type of treatment. And then if it continues on, post my post traumatic stress disorder, and it was for me 2017. And I got word from the magistrate, I guess that this was the state magistrate that didn’t want to pull basically spoke to my lawyer and said, I need to make a decision on this case. I need a little bit more something from you. And basically, we’re asking for funds. Wow, to do the right thing. We had all the evidence there was what do they call it irrefutable evidence? Yeah. And my lawyer came quite comfortably, you know that the lawyer is because that’s kind of what happens over there. And I said, we have gone this far without paying a single dollar for an unjust response. And I said, and we are not that lucky that magistrate needs to do the right thing. Yeah. And I, again, ideally believe we had gotten so fine and I thought that the right thing was going to occur. She kept delaying, delaying Elena Lane, the link, she basically delayed the response. He just didn’t respond. Well just kept leaving. And they usually need the result within 30 days. We put in another What is it another? I forget the legal terms now, but we did everything that we could delayed delayed delayed, did not. And I went into this sort of catatonic state, possibly we could say, like clinically speaking, but I couldn’t move. I just stayed in bed. I noticed. And it kept coming and extending. I didn’t have the energy. We used to have to cross lateral Murasa. So why would time Baja California NT Juana and then we we travelled to Mexicali where all the legal procedures and proceedings would occur. And this was a long journey. And it was a massive mountain, almost symbolic. Every time I had to cross that mountain to climb that mountain to get over to the other side. Any one of these journeys, I just broke down on the bus. And I said, I can’t get I can’t go and get another No. And I came back to the corner. And I just said, I’m just going to rest. Because that’s what you do. You don’t keep up you just rest. And now we come in I just rested and rested. We had I think Mom Yeah, Mom was with me at that time. And then a friend from an Australian Mexican came to be with us. And then we went to see an ex political and an ex president. His name is Oh, God, I forgot his name. I’m president Bebek. Baby Mohaka. Quite the political influencer very leftist, socialist young. And he kindly make you call in a massive crowd. And we were invited, we got tickets, some of the lawyers had gotten us connected. And you know what, the thing that I took away from that event, he said, he said, and I’ll never forget, he said, aka severe cuando para ver,
Bryan McCartney
you’re gonna have to translate that for all of us.
Andy Solange
And that means you need to know when to lose. Yeah, wow. And so I didn’t realise then the connection. But I basically went back to where we were staying, and I just stopped moving, I stopped talking, I stopped connecting, I stopped reading. And I didn’t realise I was just learning to lose, I was just learning to stop. And then obviously, my mom had been asking me to just rest for so long that our friends were saying you need to rest as well. I had exhausted everything. And I had made a promise to myself at the beginning that I would only go as far as the resources spiritually, psychologically, financially would take me. And it was probably seven weeks after that I realised Okay, yep, I’ve definitely gotten to that place. And, and I just thought, yeah, and then the journey back home, I noticed that I was getting some of the symptoms, I thought if I do not address this now, this is going to turn into post traumatic stress disorder. So as a as a psychology major, I guess I was like, No, I need to honour and this is when I finally came in to bat for myself. Yeah, I realise if I don’t step this can be this can be a long lasting effect. And so I came home the journey. Got all the best people on board. Yeah, good. Good. Psychiatrists, good psychologists, good doctor, good food, good family, good friends, and just rested and journeyed. But the all the symptoms were there, I couldn’t sleep. traumatic memories, I would close my eyes, the memories would come up, I would have nightmares. I would avoid. I couldn’t talk. I couldn’t do any more interviews, or anything related to the case was now triggering. And this is what I mean by a very different that’s not grief. Yeah, that’s a trauma response now, and and as a psychologist here with you today, anyone out there listening, if you’re suffering has turned into obsessive thinking, the memories, the nightmares, the avoidance, that withdrawal, you’re not feeling yourself, you’re not sleeping properly. This isn’t this isn’t just the loss of a death one. This is possibly now having a traumatic effect. And the death may not have been traumatic. Right. Like in our case, it may have been a normal death. But the death itself has had a dramatic influence in your brain. Yeah, because of an attachment style. Maybe you’re only mother. Oh, sorry. Your only mother. Your closest attachment. Yeah, there’s many other reasons why it’s very important to differentiate. Have you noticed that you practice
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, absolutely. So how would obviously a person in that state usually have trauma response moving into post traumatic stress is most likely not going to be able to be self aware enough to identify that situation? Observation? Yes. So how would family and friends or people around them firstly what would they look for? Secondly, how would they best support them? Okay,
Andy Solange
so remembering whatever response the individual is having for the first six months, you want to appropriate that as normal, not obviously suicidal behaviour that’s, that’s different, or suicidal ideation. It’s normal, normal to have thoughts about death, even for yourself when you’re experiencing trauma. Yeah. But it’s so for the first six months, you kind of just allow the individual to be what they need to be to feel what they need to feel to respond the way they need to respond. The other thing is keep them fed as much as you can. Soups really help. Because if the individual is in that stress response, they can’t digest their stomach. He’s not interested in food. Yeah. There’s a sabre toothed Tiger chasing them. Yeah. So then really, so and this is wonderful. The community often come they bring food, there’s often too much food in the kitchen. But the fact that you can eat a little bit of something, keeping them fed, keeping them hydrated, definitely, you can drink water during those phases. What else so the sort of the, the primal needs need to be met as much as possible. They may have disturbed sleep, that’s okay. Let them sleep in the middle of the day they have to, and then let them talk. If they feel like talking. Let them be quiet, if they don’t feel like talking, alright. And the other thing is, don’t come and dump distractions on them. Because they may not need to be distracted. Yeah. So again, it’s a it’s an individualised experience. Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
And I think you should really take your lead from the person. So you know what it is? Ask them? What how can I be there for you? What, what do you need for me? And this time? How can I best support you? What do you need most? And you know, they might not always be able to articulate it, but they might be able to give you some good indication, sometimes just being with people in quiet and silence is
Andy Solange
perfect. Yeah, just being in their presence coming in. Like we don’t have to talk. I’m just gonna, can I just sit with you while I read my book? Oh, my God, that’s beautiful. Yeah, so nourishing,
Bryan McCartney
and what a way to be connected, right? That connectedness and showing someone that their value is beyond what they give you. Because if you’re sitting with somebody, in those moments of silence and quiet and misery, then that’s a feeling that’s so liberating, because they don’t have to give you anything in return. And what a beautiful way to be connected with people.
Andy Solange
Yes. And a beautiful opportunity to experience sadness together. And not demonise sadness, apologise it normal response, normal emotion, healthy to feel it, can I sit here with you? Very important. The other one is also their capacity, eventually, the individual is going to need to process their story. And that’s that narrative process. The community can help with that by listening without judgement. Yeah. And what not to do. So important to not make them feel like suffering. Bad. Yeah, this happened a lot in my, in my, in my journey, I must I was made to feel like my sadness was bad. Because people were uncomfortable seeing my happy smile said, Yeah, I was in the community where I was always happy. I was always smiling. I was a support, I was a massive support network for people. And some individuals were very uncomfortable with, with me feeling those emotions. So I’m I couldn’t be around those individuals, I had to surround the ones that could lead me that wouldn’t feel triggered by seeing me triggered. Yeah, of course. Another thing is that the individual may have triggered responses. So there’ll be more irritable than usual. And there’ll be, they won’t be their normal self. And that’s, again, reassuring that it’s okay, you’re allowed to be whatever you need. Yeah. There’s a lot that there’s a lot to that. And then of course, if you don’t know how to support, because you could support it in a way that’s detrimental. Yes, I get some support, call somebody, the helpline is a brilliant, and it and then I would encourage you to get some professional support, if possible, how can I best help this, this person I care about, so that your own projections don’t come in and hinder the process?
Bryan McCartney
I want to just re confirm and clarify as well. So when we’re talking about that six month timeframe, we’re not talking that a person should be at the end of their grief journey, what we’re talking about as that a person should be starting to take positive steps towards experiencing their grief journey. So what would be looking for some negative coping mechanisms there? So things like alcoholism or drug dependence or that sort of thing? We’re not talking about just people who are clumped in a heap for, you know, a little longer than what society would expect them to be because there’s no timeframe for grief. But when we talk about prolonged grief, we talk about those negative indicators.
Andy Solange
Well, and remembering that we’re separating grief, though from trauma, of course. Yeah. So that’s, that’s only in terms of the trauma response. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that that would then if it goes past six months, and you’re going to want to get a clinic clinician on board course process, the traumatic response, grief itself, grief itself. Again, there’s Yeah, like you said, there’s no timeframe. Yeah. But, but the thing is, if it is prolonged, and if it’s impairing your personal performance, your social performance and your professional performance, past six months, then you would still want someone to come on board with you. Yeah. Unless you by choice. You’re just like I just don’t want to work with Foot one year, two year three year I just want to process the story. And that’s kind of what I did. Yeah. And that’s okay. Like normal, exactly. At least so that you’re not there going, why can’t I get back to my normal functioning? Well, maybe you don’t want to, but let’s process that. Yeah. Does that mean Yeah, but remember two different things. We’re talking about trauma before? No. No grief.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Good. Just to clarify that for listeners as well. Andy, it’s been awesome talking to you today. Thank you so much for joining us. And we I’ve got a feeling we might get you on again. Oh,
Andy Solange
thank you, Brian. That was really and again, hearing healing in terms of part of that processing. Yeah, super important processes story with a friend with someone you love or someone you trust, or with a psychologist.
Bryan McCartney
Great advice. Thanks, Andy. Thank you. You’ve been listening to mastering death. Don’t forget to like and subscribe. Follow us on your favourite podcast app and visit us at usheringdeath.com.au