Transcript
Bryan McCartney
You’re listening to Ushering Death. Follow us on all good podcast apps or at usheringdeath.com.au. Welcome to ushering death today I’m talking to Annette Lourigan. Good morning or good afternoon, I should say. Good afternoon, Brian,
Annette Lourigan
how you
Bryan McCartney
very well, thank you. Thank you for being with me today. Thank you. You’ve had a pretty illustrious career in the death care industry from, I guess a perspective of a funeral director. Now you’re working in the palliative care space. And in between all of that you also had a run the Senate here for the Federal Parliament.
Annette Lourigan
I’ve never heard it called the last two years before. There’s probably a lot of people that would say I’ve been a total pain in the backside. That makes it illustrious, and I’m here and I’m now working in aged care, which is also palliative care as well. So some people
Bryan McCartney
might call it infamous instead of illustrious people great to better. Tell us let’s go right back to the beginning of your career in the death industry. How did you become a funeral director and take us on the journey?
Annette Lourigan
I may have shaken a few tails at that time as well Brian, to be honest, a, a wonderful friend of mine, he was Kalin. He had died on a motorbike. How was 23 and live life pretty big. He was to get married six weeks later is young men are new, and I’ve seen that happen too often. And cow’s parents phoned me and asked me to organise a memorial service for him in Queensland, because his money was going back to Aubrey with donker, where his mum and dad work. Okay. And I swore a lot there next, I still swear. And like all good
Bryan McCartney
actors. We do.
Annette Lourigan
And I asked them why. And you asked me to be authentic Brian. And Callum at that time, I was also doing religious ed tech teaching. And Callum had told his mom that he knew this bird who was very religious and she was young person, he knew they could talk about God and head job in the same sentence. So, hence the funeral going out to do a memorial service. Like most people, I thought that there were legalities around doing a memorial service. I contacted different funeral directors look that they will Wenger’s them to you know, I’m just gonna be straight to the point and weren’t very helpful. One asked me out on a date. And I went to my parish priest. And he said to me, you know, where did you meet? I said, we would meet in the pub. And he said, Just do it in a pub. And myself and a girlfriend we organised the best memorial service we got toughly to play. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. And the thin one of the directors came along to see what was going on and offered me a job. I did tell him exactly where I could shove this job. Down. I went to my parish priest because I was working as a cash register operator at the time. And he said to me, it was Father Joe Duffy, who a lot of people know from when he was on the airwaves in the 70s. And Joe Duffy said to me, and that is an a marvellous vocation, and you will love it.
Bryan McCartney
So that’s how it started. And when was that? How long ago?
Annette Lourigan
That’s 1997. So cow died in October 1997. And I was employed in the sector by early November.
Bryan McCartney
Wow. Wow. And since then, like, you know, it’s it’s played a massive part in your life. Yeah.
Annette Lourigan
It is. It is. It shaped me one of the very first arrangements I did the family, let all the skeletons out of the cupboard. And I thought, Well, my family is just like every other family were actually normal. So it shaped me that way. checked me to be a better mother, and friend and a daughter. So you’re an passionate, um, this would be the infamous stuff. Yeah, because I can’t stand poor customer service. Brian.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, you and me both. Huh. Tell us a bit about the first few months, you know, as a new funeral arranger working for was that a large company you were with at the time.
Annette Lourigan
So it was actually an American funeral company. So Stuart. I was 31. When I started. It was very much still at that point, a male dominated industry. And it was the women were treated. and quite thickly in that. I did get to go on a coroner’s roster, which is for those that don’t know what a coroner’s roster is. Ambulance do not remove deceased bodies from car accidents, house fires, murders. It’s a funeral director. So I was 31. That was pretty amazing, amazing, wrong word.
Bryan McCartney
Confronting,
Annette Lourigan
confronting amazingly confronting the first couple of months was quite an eye opener for me. And I did tread on toes. Right from the very beginning, the there was a boss that I had. And she gained people’s trust quite quickly. And she was getting upset because I was being asked to do arrangements and then asked to actually also speak at the funerals. So yeah, wow, it didn’t take very long for them to not give me hours. But then they gave me more hours. Again, I put a stop confronting people.
Bryan McCartney
Don’t ever stop confronting people. I think it’s people that you know, like yourself that keep people honest, right. Like, that’s how we improve standards. It’s how we get better. It’s how we improve our industry, I think it’s taking that shroud of secrecy away from things.
Annette Lourigan
And thank God for your team, because your team has actually moved the sector into the, into the 21st century, then God,
Bryan McCartney
that is so nice of you to say we like to think of it, that our team is shining a light into those dark, dank, funeral homes that people are used to, we like to think that that’s what we’re doing. We’re changing our industry with a bit of light and bit of light heartedness as well. And in a lot of compassion.
Annette Lourigan
Well, I was very grateful to meet your mum, because your mum is as wicked as I am. And your mum would quite often laugh during arrangements. And the two of us were quite often in trouble. But people connected and just because you’re doing a funeral arrangement doesn’t mean you sense humans left at the door.
Bryan McCartney
Definitely.
Annette Lourigan
Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
All right. You know, sometimes, as well, you know, people that’s exactly what a family and and you know, we’re all smart, right? We know how to gauge and measure our families. But sometimes that’s exactly what a family needs as someone just to break that tension of grief. And just bring some light heartedness to the process to make people remember that, you know, you’re going to laugh again, and that’s okay. You know, you’re not going to be in this place forever. So tell us, tell us a bit more about your funeral journey. Take us take us on a walk through your career as a funeral professional.
Annette Lourigan
So the coroner’s really did my head in is the best way to say it. And in 2007 2007, I did actually have some PTSD, which had to do with it. When you going out to because there was no debriefing. When I started, nobody debrief. So you could go to a car accident. That was a triple fatality on the Saturday, do a weekend of heroin overdoses that was six deaths, and then go to a car accident that had two people killed on a Tuesday and find yourself making a cup of tea in the in the staff room and with a tea cup shaking. I don’t know how I’m going to do that. Brian, you have to get back on track. So was I’ve left it at different times. But I’ve always in that time, I did leave it I actually just you know, wrote my own letter saying I’m not going I can’t do this anymore. And then I left went back to retail and was driving down in Brisbane and spotted a gorgeous Jared Griffith who said to me, are you ready to come back and you don’t have to do coroner’s and went back into it. And every time I’ve left that sector, even when I ran for the Senate, they will still have me back. I don’t know why.
Bryan McCartney
Greater ranges are hard to find. Let’s be honest.
Annette Lourigan
Yeah, yes. Robert lasgun taught me years ago and Robert was an amazing arranger. And he said, When you can stand up talking to a guy write a funeral arrangement on an envelope whilst having a beer and discussing life. That’s when you’re a funeral arranger. And my gosh, that stayed with me. And yeah, because it was more about listening and connecting. It wasn’t about taking, taking the order.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. And I guess that’s where a lot of arrangers can fall into that trap of, you know, being an order taker rather than you know, supporting a family because, you know, sometimes what families think they want is not always the right thing for them and, you know, order takers You won’t know how to help a family through that. What do you think it is that makes a great funeral arranger.
Annette Lourigan
Oh, active listening. Someone who does go home at night time and wonder about how the person is feeling? Yeah. Somebody who actually watches the news and goes, oh my gosh, that’s awful. And someone who sees something beautiful and smiles and goes, oh my gosh, that’s fabulous. It’s I think it’s kindness makes a bloody good funeral director.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, absolutely. Of the I imagined throughout your your career as a funeral professional, and that would have spanned What 20 odd years sort of as a funeral professional. Would that be right? Yeah. I imagine there’s very few things that you haven’t seen or you haven’t encountered. Are there particular instances that really sort of stay with you?
Annette Lourigan
Yes. A young boy by the name of Daniel. And he donated, he actually donated his organs. And his grandfather when we were chatting, talked about because Daniel was nine and said there were nine people that were going to benefit from Daniel and his grandfather actually made the urn for Daniel’s ashes to go into. And he held. He carried that. Like it was a precious child and I will never forget that man’s face. And the other is Nev Hassam, who had even met his beautiful wife just before World War Two started. And when she died, and he that there was body fluids everywhere that man, just I needed to wash my hands. And he told me to marry your best friend.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Wow. Is that do you think that would be among some of the best advice you’ve ever been given from a family?
Annette Lourigan
You always pick up advice. You always pick up ways to parent different. There was a little boy, I went to get spring his dad into care, his dad had actually had a heart attack at home. And this little boy kicked the living daylights out of me as I took his dad and put him in the car. And again, at the arrangement, this little boy kicked me. And I was the person that took away his dad. And I imagine if that kid saw me Now he’d still kick me. But I, you know, Brian, I was that person. And he taught me that one of the things that I needed to do when I go in was to go into a house and and it was relatively new. But the lesson happened was to actually sit down with the children. Because we don’t make death. And funerals children’s business. Yeah. And it is. Absolutely. I needed. So he taught me things I think you’re always learning in the role. Always, always, when I did manage a brand that was actually for people who were doing it financially tough, and I can tell you why I met some best people. I did a funeral very young woman who was homeless. And her friends, we actually did hold it, you know, they’ve managed to put some money together for her. And one of her friends stood up and said, I love Shona. Because every time she found a sandwich, she shared that with me. Yeah. So you’re gonna get much better than that, does it? Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
I think you know, we, especially as funeral directors, I think you very quickly learn it’s not the things you have in life that make life worthwhile. It’s, you know, it’s how you share those moments. And it’s how you make other people feel and how you feel that that’s important.
Annette Lourigan
Yeah, I’d like every day in the funeral industry. You should be prepared to be surprised. And have your heart touched.
Bryan McCartney
Absolutely. Absolutely. And as funeral like funeral professionals, you know that touching of the heart that can be really challenging for people. How did you you know, you talked about before about having PTSD after the coronial contract, but how did you manage your own mental health and well being as a funeral professional,
Annette Lourigan
I actually dealt with it was probably the best thing was that I dealt with it there’s you know, I didn’t do it through meditation or putting Rose Quartz down my brow which was suggested to me a lot of times. I went and sought professional help after In 2007, I actually kept getting professional help. And I think it’s not just in the funeral industry that your mental health can be confronted. It’s in every, it’s in everyday life. And I attend to my mental health now as I do my normal health. So, to answer the question, one of the people that I saw during that time said to me, you know, still care, but professionally care, and set your boundaries. And I took that on board.
Bryan McCartney
The way that we teach people to set boundaries is we talk about grief, like it’s a place, and that it’s okay for them to visit with that person’s grief. But they can’t take it away with them. It’s not yours to take, it’s not theirs to own, it’s okay to visit, share with it. And once you have finished with that, with that family, you have to leave that grief behind because it’s not yours to process. It’s that families to process.
Annette Lourigan
When we was doing any moment, she was helping me during this part, we were doing some arm awareness about round male suicide rates. And the John English was the MP down at Redlands at the time, and John held my hand and said to me, you cannot change the world in it. But you will change the world for a person. And when you do that, you change it for their whole life. And that has also stayed with me. So there’s they’re listening. If you listen, you’ll be surprised at what you hear. Yeah. And learn
Bryan McCartney
how Absolutely. What advice would you give to a new funeral director or somebody who’s joining the funeral industry, what would be your pearls of wisdom you would share with them?
Annette Lourigan
Know that there’s a reason that you’ve been trusted somebody saw something in you. And to really look at the people that have been doing it for a long time. And, and the ones that are still longtime and look like they’re enjoying their role, and find and learn from them. I’ve learned from amazing funeral directors, I’ve learned from funeral directors that were doing it in the 1950s. And there’s so much that you can learn and as simple as how to reverse a hearse.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Wow. Is that not a skill that some people don’t have?
Annette Lourigan
Gosh, it’s so always listen, there’s an always learn, I think you and I both know that it can take seven years for a funeral director to be confident. And, and know that there’s still more to learn you learn something new every day, be open.
Bryan McCartney
Absolutely, that openness is such an important thing. And I think it goes hand in hand with that authenticity that, you know, we really expect of our team, not just our funeral directors, but also our assistants and everybody else that plays a part in that family’s journey. Yeah. Now in terms of your funeral career, so you know, it was something that you’ve gone to or come back to a few times. What is it that draws you back?
Annette Lourigan
Oh, it’s probably where I’m, I’m a great believer in God. And I think every now and then God throws me back into it those here, this is what I want you to do. So it’s it’s normally something spiritual that happens around me that I’m like, oh, okay, then back I go. Subprime, if I gave you any other answer, I’d be making it out.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. I’m sure there’s been times throughout your career as a funeral professional professional, where, you know, someone’s asked you, oh, how do you do that? Or, I don’t know how you could do that job. And you probably respond with I love what I do. How do you explain to somebody who’s not in the funeral industry, that how it’s possible to love funerals?
Annette Lourigan
I think funeral directors are a bit lucky that everybody thinks there are special, some are special, they’re not all special. In a good way. Extra God. So it’s, it’s hard to explain how it is good work. Like you get into the best of the person space when you’re sitting with a lady who’s well into her 90s And she’s got her hair has been beautifully quite before she’s coming to the twin set on and you say to her, So how old were you when you got married? And the eldest child goes, well, I was born in such and such and such and such So Mum, you and dad must have got married and such and such. And she goes your father and I would never married yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Oh, yeah,
Annette Lourigan
six children go, oh, it’s that stuff. Brian, you can’t explain. You walk into the intimacy of another world. And an even when you walk into another person’s anger, like you and I both know doing suicides. Yeah, it is. You’re walking into anger. And it’s, but somebody’s let you in. Yeah. So I don’t know, I can’t explain why it’s great work. I know for some that, you know, they think it’s great work because I get to wear a suit and drive the shiny car, then there are other people, that it’s just what they’re meant to do.
Bryan McCartney
I remember when I first became a mortician, and you know, my friends were like, That’s disgusting. Like, why, what the hell. And I remember saying to one of my friends, it is the most truthful place of honesty I’ve ever worked in my life. It’s the person that I’m looking for looking after and caring for. They’re not pretending to be anybody. They’re not they’re not hiding any secrets. And I’m also not I can be completely authentic. And just be me in such a sacred special place. And I think, you know, for, for me, that was something that I really had longed for through my life is a place of pure honesty. And I really think that that is what drew me to the funeral industry, in the first sort of instance, as a mortician, that, that just pure honesty, which is is something we don’t come across,
Annette Lourigan
and we look at Brian would keep looking at the, at the Egyptian death culture. And with that, how many how amazing. It was, yeah, our culture now should be that amazing. Our care for the dead, our care for the family, the temple, is, it should be that good. It shouldn’t. There should be no shortcuts, and it should never be cookie cutter. It should always be about the person and it is truthful, and honesty, its role.
Bryan McCartney
So how do you move from being a funeral professional into being a federal Senate candidate, especially a hot topic right now, especially with the 2020 election, on our doorstep? How does that happen for you?
Annette Lourigan
Because I’m opinionated.
Bryan McCartney
I would never have guessed.
Annette Lourigan
To see things in the world, and you think, oh my god, I’m not gonna just sit on my hands and do nothing about that. I’m quite grateful. I’ve managed to get to legislation changed. And this lifetime, Brian, you and I see it in the funeral industry, we see a kid who is 1314. And I’m gonna go back to that weekend that I talked about 1314. They using drugs, and they trust achieving their body, and they’re living on the streets. And people go, Oh, my God, that’s awful. But these kids, their streets were safer than they were than being at home. And the kid was given drugs years ago, because, you know, the stepfather or their uncle, or somebody gave this kid drugs, to subdued them, subdue them, and get them to where they work. And we see that too many times, we see that you and I have seen revenge suicide, where there’s, it is the ultimate act of domestic violence. We’ve seen people die from poverty, we’ve seen people die from his poor medical service. And so that’s why I ran for the Senate. I didn’t get to change anything, because I didn’t get in. But I, there is a picture of me with two football players.
Bryan McCartney
Because you were part of the Lazarus ticket. Is that right? Yes. Tell us about that journey for you. What did that look like?
Annette Lourigan
Um, I needed to stay true to myself. So Glen, and I, Glen was, was not the first time I’d been asked to run for a political party. My name was put forward to Glenn because I’ve done a lot of work around fundraising for homelessness, and a fair amount of work with domestic violence. And my nine that I, you know, whistleblower, there’s a whole other subject. So he and I met we both needed to agree on, I needed him to agree on my stance on refugees. And he needed me to agree on his stance around the LGBT IQ us community. And we both done that. So we ran, I was quite naive. I probably well, I was actually going I still don’t treatment for breast cancer at the time. So was probably not my best time to run but it was amazing and you Anybody can actually, too many people do run for the Senate that need to be checked out first. Yeah.
Bryan McCartney
Some of them I really wish wouldn’t.
Annette Lourigan
Oh, my God. Yes,
Bryan McCartney
we have an opportunity this election round to get rid of one of them in particular. But, you know, let’s not get political. Luck being a candidate in a Senate race. What does that involve? So how do you campaign? What does that look like? And you just mentioned before as well, at that stage, you were going through breast cancer treatment? So had you had a double mastectomy? Is that right?
Annette Lourigan
I’m trying to think I, yes, I have no boobs. At that time. I was sorry, my head I was going to have one did I do don’t wonder whether or not it’s so I’d had the double Miss, I had both mastectomy. And by that stage, I was interviewed, actually by a group of people that needed to know if I had a head for it. So they want to know, not just around my feminist voice. But did I have a head around education economy, very much climate change. And because somebody has to fund you, and that funding was agreed to be kept very, very busy. I got to be on a debate with Pauline Hanson. National News. That that involves a bottle of wine conversation, really? She knows how to manipulate media. Yes, she definitely knows how to manipulate manipulate the media. And she knows how to take a strong evidence based argument into any rational debate.
Bryan McCartney
Yes, yes, she does. Not a name I ever thought I would mention on one of my podcasts, that’s for sure.
Annette Lourigan
Before when we were talking about revenge suicide, there’s, you know, people get death fingers up in their head. And they’ll talk about, you know, this is the suicide rate. And I’d actually raised that that the suicide rate that they were quoting at that stage by through one nation, that we actually had an pandemic that was going on here in the country. And that nobody knew about because I think, you know, thinking you have to when you report death rates, you have to report it properly. And really talk about the suicides with family breakup, I can tell you that some of those suicides is the ultimate act of domestic violence. Yeah. And that’s another story again.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. So as a campaigning candidate for the Federal Senate, so what are you doing? You think you’re knocking on doors? Or you’re, you know, getting up front to front with people in pubs? And what does that look like?
Annette Lourigan
What’s another party that similar to when they decided that they were going to shadow me? So what the parties want to do is get you off kilter. Like if you can lose your, if you can lose your stuff in public, it really gives them something to go on about. So we had a look who everywhere I went, he was there. And and then what he was quoting was just quite amusing. So you’ve got to be prepared for that. When I ran to the council, when I was down in Logan, I was actually really happy for that. You’ve just got to be prepared for what people say you’ve got to be prepared for your life to become public. And then the campaigning and it’s about being authentic. And again, like so goes back to a funeral director. Somebody asks your question, and you don’t know the answer. But God’s sake, don’t make it up.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m not sure. Can I get back to you with that? Yeah.
Annette Lourigan
Because you’ve got, like a new working collaborative. You’re working in collaboration with a team. So Glenn was the face of that team. So we needed to make sure that everything that we deemed represent Glenn’s voice, yes. And once again, I’d run with Jacqui Lambie, I think she’s fabulous.
Bryan McCartney
But I think she’s I think she’s a really interesting candidate. That’s for sure. She’s an interesting Senator as well. She I’m not sure that I agree with her politics at the beginning of her career, but I think she has evolved somewhat.
Annette Lourigan
She has evolved she’s, she’s her own woman in politics.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. I love that she holds people accountable. And I think that, you know, that is something that is severely lacking in politics in in this country. But I digress. We, we were talking about obviously about that that run so that was unsuccessful. So is that what took you back? And did you go back into the funeral space after that run as a candidate,
Annette Lourigan
um, I kind of stayed in there. During that time when I ran for the council, I had to leave and I actually promoted coffins, cardboard coffins up, and then the eastern coast of Australia, which I thoroughly enjoyed. So in 2005, there was not a lot of coffins giving us that were cardboard. And I really enjoyed doing that. And I got asked to go back into the industry again, three times they’ve asked me, Brian,
Bryan McCartney
I can understand why.
Annette Lourigan
They don’t know who’s braver.
Bryan McCartney
And then so I guess as we then progress a bit further through your funeral career, and then we come into this space of palliative care, aged care. Tell us a bit about that journey.
Annette Lourigan
Okay, so when I was a funeral director on the Sunshine Coast, and I was working, coroner’s that I got to I got to see two amazing funeral services done. So there was a gentleman who was under the care of ceremony. And he was part of the gay community on the Sunshine Coast. His tribe tended to him, his tribe dressed him, his tribe sung for him. And what this gentleman had had was palliative care, which I’d never heard the term before. So his tribe had actually walked with him through this journey. And it was quite, it was the most amazing funeral I had seen. And then the second time was a lady who wanted to die at home, and we went into her home and her daughters were with her. And as we carried her out, I noticed that there were flowers, the flowers that the daughters had with her, but also the flowers along the garden path. And this lady had also been in palliative care. So I wanted to understand what it was and how it when people are prepared for when people understand that we all die. They actually are not as vulnerable when they go to the funeral home. These both these families told us exactly what we were doing, that we could not manipulate them, we could not. And and manipulate is an interesting word, though, when you’re trying to get a family to work within what your business structure names, is manipulation. This, they came to us knowing exactly what it was that they wanted. And it was doing working, volunteering for volunteer volunteering for palliative care Queensland, learning about palliative care having a look at what was happening overseas, because Australia’s deaf culture and deaf model is so draconian except for your business.
Bryan McCartney
Well, and even then it has some, you know, elements that are a little archaic, that we would love to change, but it’s about people’s perceptions of death, right? So slowly, slowly or gently, gently we try and influence people to have a different view of death and death care.
Annette Lourigan
And for me, like some my beautiful stepmom, she had dementia. And that was one of the worst days of my life. And I suppose for me, I learned that, you know, the day that you’re told you have a diagnosis, a terminal diagnosis, it’s one of your worst days and there’s a whole pile of worse days that you have, like you and I have a friend who is palliative. And I was with her the day that she was told she was terminal. And the day of the funeral, the day that somebody dies is not necessarily the worst day. It is one of very many that have got people to that circumstance and and we need to nurture people through that whole process. I hope that made sense. Brian. I I get very saddened by people that I so for my own diagnosis, it was like I didn’t have oncology unit find you and it’s like, well, and the oncology unit Have they found yet and I said I’m actually here to find out what the results are. But I think I know what they are. And my daughter was sitting with me and this doctor who bless him, said to me Ah, so now he’s told you you’ve got breast cancer yet and it’s like, no, no, not yet.
Bryan McCartney
Thanks for breaking it to me gently doc.
Annette Lourigan
sent to me by Karianne Kenley and Kylie Minogue. And Olivia Newton John, that would be okay. So I left the doctor’s surgery with my daughter and myself to drive home after that news, and I didn’t even have a bloody pamphlet. tell you not to Google search, what to do? Um, so it’s, it’s all of that. And for me that hearing that I had breast cancer, and being told that they had it all, I had six weeks where I did not know. Yeah. And that six weeks taught me an awful lot about writing. And when my dad was dying, he and he had been told his diagnosis, and we were driving home. And he said, The waddles more golden ratio. And I said that it is. And they said, why is that? And I said, you’ll see everything more golden now. And so there’s a blessing that comes with it again, I’ve digressed. Did you know this was going to happen, but
Bryan McCartney
I did. Alright, we planned for this. I do want to briefly touch on some palliative care, and exactly what palliative care is. So what is palliative care for people who don’t know exactly what that means?
Annette Lourigan
I need people to listen to this very, very clearly. Health care means that you have a illness or condition that is not curable. So it doesn’t mean that you’re going to die in two weeks or two months, it means that there is no current cure for the illness that you have. So they’re going to treat the symptoms rather than working on a cure. So it is by no means end of life.
Bryan McCartney
So we do have an element of end of life palliative care, but regular palliative care is about treating symptoms, instead of curing, right, so it’s about keeping comfort, pain, a minimum, all of that sort of stuff.
Annette Lourigan
So there’s really there’s three stages to it, there’s your pelleted we’re now looking at end of life, so end of life is when your body is actually it, there is nothing else that can happen that disease that cancer, it’s just, it’s just when paging and and you’ve got active dying and active dying is where your body is now shutting down. So from a palliative being told that you palliative to actually active dying, there can be a lot, a lot of time during that. And the people that know that they’re dying, that actually get their health together in the house together. It’s not just your finances, it’s spiritually it’s, you know, do you need to say sorry to somebody do they might not listen to me. So all that stuff that bothers us in our head to clear that out. And so that we can actually look out the window like I’m looking at now and you watch the sun, listen on the beautiful trees here at the Happy
Bryan McCartney
Tree. Excellent. So tell us about what it is that you do in that space.
Annette Lourigan
In that space, I actually got to help set up the volunteer village by ambulance which which was amazing. And ambulance wish was brought into Australia when during the term that I was on the State Council for pelleted care. And it’s for people who are dying who want to go out and do something again. So it could be with a couple of Helvetica and they want to they want to have a picnic at Mount Kufa again and you take them up. It could be that a lady wants to see her first great great grandchild. It’s it’s never it’s not always something bigs, it’s it’s a tiny things. It’s it’s a nice spring, you know, it’s having going home and being able to sit with your dog. So that’s what I was doing when I worked for palliative care. They were also in this space. I’ve always done a lot of public speaking I around palliative care. I may have debated with Philip initially at one stage as well during my life because we understand palliative care and if it was made and if the government put more money into palliative care, yes, yes, we would have more people dying in a gentle space. So it doesn’t always it’s not always gentle. But it can be gentler.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, we talk about, you know, having a good death. And you know, no death is good. But there are ways that people can have a good death or a better death than if they were were not looked after. And I think that is so important. And it comes back to that whole respect and dignity. And you know, a person being able to just die comfortably
Annette Lourigan
asked him and asked him or Wendy is the art of the beautiful time. And it’s a text that was 14th century. It talks about, about sorting to your house, and I heard a chaplain speak years ago at a palliative care event. And she talked about the pains of dying, and you see all the doctors going, Oh, yep. Okay, yep, we’ve got fentanyl for that. And we’ve got more thing for that. And then she said, What about their spiritual pain? What are their heart pain? And you could see this, you could see the change in the room, where we actually addressed that, it is not just physical pain that we go through.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah, yeah. And people often talk in those, you know, end of life, those very final stages of, you know, being or the person who is palliative, or who is at end of life, or actively dying, that they, you know, have conversations with people who are from the past of their life, or in the past, you know, from their life in the past is what I should say, we should try and use some semi good grammar, you know, and they talk about those different experiences. And you know, people from a science, sort of brain or mindset, we’ll talk about, oh, that’s your brain, providing you with those final moments of care and comfort and showing you all the things that you need to hear to believe, whatever you believe, and then you have people from a more spiritual or faith base that might talk about, you know, our loved ones that come and help us across the veil and those sorts of things. What do you think he’s the what happens? What do you what do you think happens in those final minutes?
Annette Lourigan
Brian, let’s be honest, you and I both worked in the feeding sector want to know that? There is other stuff any hero directed that says they haven’t seen Star? Yeah, is honestly I, they must have spent their life sleeping. And you and I both know that you can be writing. And you can be sitting down and you can be writing and all of a sudden you go since Did your mom like tennis? So I, my own experience with my father, and when he was dying was actually quite beautiful, Dad’s dying. And we had some great conversations even like, up until about three minutes before he died. And Dad said to me, he called me the one he trusted. And he said the one I trust, were swimming in a river, what’s happening with my mind? And I said, Dad, you’re dying. And they did say to me, he said, someone I trust, you look younger, when I’m dying. I thought I think stead because I’ve gone grey through all of this. Dad, dad was present, his soul was present or what was happening next. He’s you and I both like we’ve worked with Buddhist families. And we know that we do not move a Buddhist person for eight hours. Because their sense of hearing is still there. We’ve we’ve seen so many amazing cultures and moments that we know that that that we know that people come in to take their loved ones home. Yeah. Can’t deny it. And it’s too many families too many moments, to many physical reactions to doubt that there is any signs of after death. As a person who believes in God do I know what that is? Know, to hope it’s a bit of Buddhism and dental care catch up with each other again? Yes. Do I believe in reincarnation? I do. Is it is it deeply sad that we are cutting ourselves off from having a belief in a spiritual sense? Yes. Because you find hope in spirituality and we should never lose hope.
Bryan McCartney
Yeah. Well created Vice Well, I want to ask you for before we finish up, I want to ask you for one more great piece of advice specifically around palliative care and families who have a loved one that might be entering the palliative care process. What advice would you give that family to helping their loved one experiences as best to death as possible?
Annette Lourigan
So the first one very quickly is medical marijuana. Get it? You have to get it from do get it
Annette Lourigan
to be present, and to find out about love. Guys sat with a gentleman the other day his dad was dying. And I said to the gentleman, like you just tell he was an interesting character. I said to this kid over here, how did you have him? How’d you meet his mother. And he started telling me this amazing story about human needs mate surfing through Indonesia, how he walked into a pub and said to this woman, if you get me a beer right now, I’m going to marry you. And the son, Brian had no idea about this story, you know, to sit down and find out like my dad, my dad was an awful barber as a young man. And we’d sort of trained ourselves to be a bit different way with him. And in the last six weeks, I got to learn things about my dad, and myself. That was amazing. And one of our arguments, he’s just started crying at me and I was like, why are you crying? And he said, You still puff your cheeks up when you’re angry like you do when you’re a little girl. And, you know, be present, be there. Put all the bad stuff behind you. And, and practice forgiveness and and be accepting if somebody has done something to you that you do not understand. Ask them. Ask them why. If it’s the time is is the most real time and if you are palliative is don’t sit there and die because dying happens within a heartbeat. Live. Just live.
Bryan McCartney
That is such great advice in it. Thank you so much for being with me today.
Annette Lourigan
Brian, thank you for trusting me. I don’t know how we went.
Bryan McCartney
We did. Thanks. Thanks very much.
Annette Lourigan
Thank you, Bryan. This episode is brought to you by Brisbane Cremation. No frills, no fuss, just respect, dignity and care. Visit us at Brisbane cremation.com.au
Bryan McCartney
You’ve been listening to mastering death. Don’t forget to like and subscribe follow us on your favourite podcast app and visit us at usheringdeath.com.au